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QUOTE (siel @ Aug 5 2009, 05:12 PM) 
Maybe people are just getting desensitized. I mean first in that location was magic, and then dragon, then orks, dwarves, elves, and so insect spirits, then SURGE and changeling, non to mention paracritters and other new changes and advances. To the point when y'all get to AI, people only don't intendance that much whatever more.
Brilliant corp propaganda or media portrayal might accept helped.
While absolutely unfamiliar with SR canon, may I endeavor one other route? What if they gain acceptance easier as long equally in that location is no meatspace avatar aka android. To someone on the internet, the idea that each of us accept this kind of anonymity, thus even though I say I am a guy I could actually be a girl in meat space and so on, if you met an AI on the matrix, would you really know you lot met one or simply some other matrix avatar? And if SiN are kinda like your proper name/identity expressed in numbers, doesn't that audio a bit like an AI?
My last idea is that the AIs, mayhap even the TMs, are just the crazy results of the last crash, bits and pieces of the big AIs of the by, ghosts in the machine and all that. I mean, if yous were an AI, you would try to store copies of yourself to survive right and attain a sort of immortality (aka kids or clones or whatever), fifty-fifty if yous had to parcel information technology upwards?
*shrug*
Nonetheless, I find my newbie self agreeing with Knasser it is a disappointing for drek hot hackers/crackers/programers when Neo or Micah (Heroes tv show) shows up, eh?
QUOTE (siel @ Aug v 2009, 08:12 PM)
Computer ability did non brand breakthrough leaps, maybe that would explain why most of the mutual that have shown up are fairly weak and take compared to those earlier the crash.
I take been wondering. Are in that location still UV hosts effectually? Have they been removed, downscaled, or simply inverse in preference of the wireless matrix with a mesh network. How does the nature of the new wireless matrix affect AI?
Are people simply against the idea of weaker AI in full general, or against the lack of strong AI in the canon afterward the crash? If information technology's the latter, every bit far as nosotros know, they could still exist around. If the option of drake as PC and existence of weaker draconic form of all sort does not affect what y'all think of the Slap-up Dragon, why get bothered past weak AI?
As far as information technology goes UV hosts only exist should someone determine to put them in, at that place are no confirmed UV hosts. This is precisely why I cannot stand the thought of these current AIs. This is the chief reason why I am opposed to these electric current AIs, but this is driven past the fact that I am employed in the computing industry and sympathise quite a bit about what has gone into developing synthetic intelligences.
Let'due south take one of the almost well known "AIs", Deep Bluish. Deep Blue, equally yous may or may non know, beat out Kasparov in a six game lucifer of chess. Kasparov is a Grandmaster in Chess and arguably one of the best players in the world. One thing to note is that in grooming for a match between two Grandmasters, they tin request books of previous games made by their opponent so that they may written report them. At the time of this match Deep Blue was the 259th most powerful supercomputer and it was achieving eleven.38 GFLOPS. I of the reasons Deep Blue was able to beat Kasparov was due to its hardware existence specifically tailored to playing chess. Deep Bluish ended up winning iii 1/2 to ii 1/2 in the 6th game. Deep Blue has 4 Grandmasters contribute games to its library of games to compare to when processing what motility. So in essence, Kasparov was playing against 4 Grandmasters at once, and Kasparov was not given the library of games from which Deep Blue was able to use equally reference.
Now fast forrad to modern times. The fastest supercomputers are only capable of performing at nearly 1/15th of the estimated processing capability of the human brain. We withal haven't developed an AI that can pass the Turing Examination.
Now fast forward to the 2020s and Echo Mirage. Prior to his emergence, Delusion was essentially an attack program in what may have been the most powerful depository financial institution of computing ability in existence at the time, surrounded past some of the most brilliant minds on the planet. It was, arguably, a set up of rare coincidences that led to Delusion achieving self awareness, in fact no one noticed that he became cocky-enlightened. Now this may brand some people mad, but I've always felt that Mirage was more mature than Morgan/Magaera and Deus. Magaera and Deus just experience similar children in comparing to Mirage and I suspect this is do the the number and quality of the minds that were nowadays and induced the self-awareness.
Basically, I don't feel that the critical mass of calculating power necessary for an AI to become self aware exists, at least not to the caste that would allow all these "AI"s to crop up. In my opinion, the simply mode for these new AIs to exist cocky-enlightened AIs is to cross that technology/magic divide and have them come about as a magical means, but I feel that is a cop out and cheapens the whole idea that AIs should be a pinnacle of technology. I just cannot take these AIs as cocky-enlightened. Now, you tin can allocate them every bit highly advanced personality programs that may not realize that they aren't self-aware, and I would accept that, but they're not self-aware AIs.
Now if in that location are some self-enlightened AIs out there, they are going to be on par with the large three AIs, and there's going to exist less than twenty of them. They're going be trapped upwards in the AAAs and regime facilities.
I remember this thread has pretty succinctly touched on an important problem Shadowrun has. There is about no reason to build a generalist. There are certainly skills that everybody should take, like the stealth group and athletics, but you operate at a signifigant disadvantage if the bulk of your points beyond a diverseness of skills. I much adopt systems like Twilight 2013, where skills have the same applicative values within "bands" of training.
If I recollect my Comp-Sci correctly, Moore's Law indicates that nosotros should have a Supercomputer capable of performing the necessary processing power (I believe the general consensus is that the encephalon is capable of 100 TFLOPS) by 2020. In fact standing on the same scale past 2070 we should be capable of building a computer capable of pushing out the same ability equally the unabridged human race.
That is of course dependent on Moore'south Police force holding true. We are rapidly approaching the limitations of semiconductor engineering science, and to perform too as projected we would need to of developed things such as quantum processing (Which is quite probable, current research shoes it is possible)
And then add in the handwavium that seems to exist in the Sixth World that we have achieved the perfection of Deject based processing, and that the Matrix solitary could be acting as a massive supercomputer that is spawning these DI'south (A note, this is what I personally believe that the Deep Resonance is. The Matrix has become self aware in a very abstract way, and that it has affected everything within the Matrix as such).
EDIT: Also, for all we know the current explosion of DI's is an after result of one of the original threes machinations. Deus could be behind everything that has occured, or Mirage. With the ability of the SCIRE behind him Deus could easily accept projected time to come technologies and applied certain parts of his code throughout the Matrix via his Otaku.
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 5 2009, 08:05 PM)
If I remember my Comp-Sci correctly, Moore's Law indicates that we should have a Supercomputer capable of performing the necessary processing power (I believe the full general consensus is that the brain is capable of 100 TFLOPS) past 2020. In fact continuing on the aforementioned scale by 2070 we should be capable of building a computer capable of pushing out the same power as the entire human race.
That is of form dependent on Moore'due south Law property true. Nosotros are chop-chop budgeted the limitations of semiconductor technology, and to perform also as projected nosotros would demand to of developed things such as quantum processing (Which is quite probable, current inquiry shoes it is possible)
And and then add together in the handwavium that seems to exist in the 6th World that we accept achieved the perfection of Cloud based processing, and that the Matrix lone could be interim as a massive supercomputer that is spawning these DI's (A note, this is what I personally believe that the Deep Resonance is. The Matrix has become self enlightened in a very abstract fashion, and that it has afflicted everything within the Matrix equally such).
EDIT: Also, for all we know the current explosion of DI's is an after effect of 1 of the original threes machinations. Deus could be backside everything that has occured, or Mirage. With the power of the SCIRE backside him Deus could easily have projected future technologies and practical certain parts of his code throughout the Matrix via his Otaku.
That is an interesting mode of explaining things... I will take to think virtually that...
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 5 2009, 02:33 PM)
Analyze Truth, somewhat useful. If your team mage isn't your Swiss Ground forces Knife, what are they, a mobile semi-stealthy arms unit? If I had to choice two "types" of magic for a totem I pulled out of my hoop just based on my idea of Crunch-due north-Munch? Detection and Manipulation, easily downwards.
Detect Enemies, INCREDIBLY useful, particularly in poor visibility.
Discover Life, at high force levels is ugly. just, as they say: "Don't hate me 'crusade I'thou beautiful!"
Mind Probe, INCREDIBLY useful.
Diagnose, is your mage also your squad medic?
Catalog, you can't come with a utilise for this? Um, paydata while the decker does their thing?
Spatial Sense - Extended, combined with Discover Life, who needs penetrating radar?
Area Thought Recognition, "have you seen this person?" without people running or roughing y'all upward.
Interpret, occasionally VERY handy, wouldn't you lot say?
Lol, I just merely noticed this post. Certain my squad mages are multifuctional and extremely powerful, but it isn't the spells on this listing that brand them that. Those ones are crap. Aside from Detect life and Mind Probe which is totally crawly, most of those spells are terrible for mages, I'd rather accept Trid-D phantasm or Shape metallic, or mana static or heal, or stunball, or the list goes on. Physical Mask is style cool. And they simply typically start with viii spells.
So yeah, mages in my runs don't bring that stuff because those spells are bad (except detect life). FT further brings it dwelling, because compared to WHOIS, they are all terrible.
Except notice life, and perhaps mindprobe.
I mean you actually accept mages who take full jank similar diagnose and translate? Instead of Ready or Heal.
What?
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 08:36 PM)
Lol, I only just noticed this post. Certain my team mages are multifuctional and extremely powerful, but it isn't the spells on this list that make them that. Those ones are crap. Bated from Detect life and Heed Probe which is totally awesome, most of those spells are terrible for mages, I'd rather take Trid-D phantasm or Shape metal, or mana static or heal, or stunball, or the list goes on. Physical Mask is way cool. And they only typically start with 8 spells.
So yeah, mages in my runs don't bring that stuff because those spells are bad (except detect life). FT further brings it home, because compared to WHOIS, they are all terrible.
Except detect life, and possibly mindprobe.
I mean you actually have mages who take full jank similar diagnose and interpret? Instead of Fix or Heal.
What?
I would have these in a heartbeat... and have....
Where practice yous get the Typical starting number of spells = eight? They tin kickoff from 2 to 14 depending upon their highest sorcery skill rating... Just Curious... I have started with 2 and have started with 12... depends upon the character...
*in an X-Fly*
"Keep on Targ- I hateful Topic!"
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug v 2009, 08:48 PM)
*in an Ten-Wing*
"Keep on Targ- I mean Topic!"
Distressing... They came from ... Behind...
People tend to have relevant skills of 4 or vi I've noticed. As spirits are typically better than what you get with your 2 ranks of casting stuff upwardly, I've also noticed that more often than not the 6 if they have information technology is in summoning. Thus sorcery tends to cap out at 4.
Check "In the shadows" if y'all'd like.
I mean sure in that location are all sorts of exceptions, simply in the primary virtually characters are express to 8, and most of those spells don't fifty-fifty make the acme 15 list, so I can legitmentally say that those spells are jank.
Knasser: I don't know if y'all're still reading this thread, but I understand what you mean about Technomancer's mystical qualities degrading a theme I enjoyed in SR. I toyed with a houserule that decoupled essence and resonance and entirely removed the radio brain. More than like old school otaku.
the_real_elwood: As well like this?
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 09:09 PM)
People tend to have relevant skills of four or half dozen I've noticed. As spirits are typically better than what yous get with your 2 ranks of casting stuff upwards, I've also noticed that by and large the 6 if they have it is in summoning. Thus sorcery tends to cap out at 4.
Check "In the shadows" if you'd like.
I hateful certain at that place are all sorts of exceptions, but in the chief most characters are express to 8, and near of those spells don't even brand the top fifteen list, so I can legitmentally say that those spells are jank.
As for the Spells... It truly depends upon the type of mage existence played... there are some mages that I have played that accept had neither health Spells (no multiple passes, stat augments) or Combat Spells (no mass harm)... they were extremely fun to play and were very valuable assets to the teams that they were on... Spells are a very personal reflection of the characters that select them...
Yeah look sure, you tin deliberately cull to brand suboptimal choices that depower your character. That is fine, and even your perogative. It's totally a cool thing to exercise. I don't think you should have to make yourself worse as a character to make an RP startment though, particularly considering that ways two 400BP characters can be at unlike powerlevels and every bit GM I'm supposed to run them in the same game, merely I go that is function of the basic premise.
Merely at the end of the day, your just taking your 3BP and setting it on burn down in the name of roleplaying, or pointless duplicating someone else's job, an item of equipment or another spell that is merely meliorate. Physical Mask is a better spell than style, which tin be hands replicated by buying a change of apparel.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17805
Summit 10 lists of spells. If you add together up frequency by which they appear, Translate and detect enemies are really low down. I'yard not even sure anyone mentions diagnose. Why? Because those spells are terrible.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug five 2009, 09:45 PM)
Yeah look sure, yous can deliberately choose to brand suboptimal choices that depower your grapheme. That is fine, and even your perogative. It'south totally a absurd thing to do. I don't recollect you should have to make yourself worse as a grapheme to make an RP startment though, especially because that ways two 400BP characters can exist at different powerlevels and as GM I'yard supposed to run them in the same game, but I get that is part of the bones premise.
Just at the end of the day, your only taking your 3BP and setting it on burn in the name of roleplaying, or pointless duplicating someone else's job, an item of equipment or another spell that is just better. Physical Mask is a amend spell than style, which can be easily replicated by buying a change of dress.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17805
Top x lists of spells. If you lot add upwards frequency past which they appear, Translate and detect enemies are really low down. I'm non even sure anyone mentions diagnose. Why? Because those spells are terrible.
But yous see... This is where we tend to differ...
I practice not come across these choices as Sub-optimal at all..., nor do I meet it equally a depowering of the character...
I am not making a "Statement" about roleplaying or annihilation else for that matter every bit you claim above...
When you arroyo every obstacle with the Hammer of Combat Spells, you should prepare yourself to be on the receiving end of hell on globe on ocassion... "I" tend to prefer a more subtle approach to the Ice Cold Professional Mage... Why use a Powerbolt when Influence volition work simply fine? Yes, Physical Mask is a Great Spell... but when I can change my Tres Chichi outfit at whim with Style, I make a greater stattement than I could e'er practise with Physical Mask, which just might not work... Permanent Concrete CHANGES are preferred to Illusionary ones in a lot of circumstances... my point beingness, that at that place are a lot of ways to approach 'running than the edgeless hammer approach that is "optimal" in some peoples minds...
Please don't imply that the subtle apporach is any less "optimal" than the tricked out combat mage of doom... it tends to be insulting...
I assume you didn't read the thread I linked. The solid all fourth dimension best spells pinnacle 10 includes maybe 1 combat spell. If yous had bothered to read it, yous'd discover thinking that indicates that Combat spells are mostly rubbish.
Heck, using the criteria I only outlined, Combat Spells are freaking terrible - fireball can be replaced by a handgrenade. Fashion is lame because it doesn't come up close to the pure awesome that is physical mask. Instead of stunbolt, I can utilize Narcojet. Why would I spend valuable BP and irreplacable spellslots on terrible spells like that when I could go Detect Life (which gives me a commencement trek tri corder) or Mana Static (Which is just and so awesome it defies belief). Or Heal.
Lets take Physical mask vs fashion as an example. Physical Mask lets me
A) Appear like someone else - classic misdirection, the guards see a 6"v black man on the security footage, not my 5"6 asian woman. Going to be hard to pin me with those eyewitness accounts.
B) Appear appropriate to the part at hand- the entire office of fashion, and I can practise it too! Okay I accept to maintain the spell (sad), but expect at the other stuff I get.
C) Doubles as a mad attack spell - I can seriously take an LMG slung over my back, and people simply cannot encounter it. It's like an Ace up your sleeve except the ace is fully automatic and fires loftier explosive rounds.
D) Also works equally a defensive spell - At a party of 50, it is 50/50 that I am the only person who can even assense, thus no-i can run across my body armour.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug v 2009, 09:35 PM)
No, he just described Master Chief and Cortana.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 09:36 PM)
Or Ironman.
another option could exist super force:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Force
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 10:07 PM)
I assume you didn't read the thread I linked. The solid all fourth dimension all-time spells meridian 10 includes peradventure 1 gainsay spell. If you had bothered to read it, you'd find thinking that indicates that Gainsay spells are more often than not rubbish.
Heck, using the criteria I but outlined, Combat Spells are freaking terrible - fireball tin can be replaced by a handgrenade. Style is lame because it doesn't come close to the pure crawly that is concrete mask. Instead of stunbolt, I tin utilize Narcojet. Why would I spend valuable BP and irreplacable spellslots on terrible spells like that when I could get Discover Life (which gives me a kickoff trek tri corder) or Mana Static (Which is but and then awesome it defies conventionalities). Or Heal.
Lets take Physical mask vs fashion every bit an example. Physical Mask lets me
A) Appear similar someone else - classic misdirection, the guards see a 6"5 blackness man on the security footage, not my 5"6 asian woman. Going to be hard to pivot me with those bystander accounts.
B) Announced appropriate to the function at end - the unabridged part of fashion, and I can exercise information technology too! Okay I take to maintain the spell (sad), simply await at the other stuff I go.
C) Doubles as a mad assail spell - I can seriously accept an LMG slung over my back, and people but cannot see it. It's like an Ace upward your sleeve except the ace is fully automatic and fires loftier explosive rounds.
D) Also works equally a defensive spell - At a party of fifty, it is 50/50 that I am the only person who can even assense, thus no-one tin meet my body armour.
I did read it... a couple of days ago...
And you merely might accept something penetrate the Concrete Mask... Yous never know...
Concrete Mask is a skilful spell...
A: Certainly, what it is intended for actually...
B: Again, Most Certainly... only so yous are -2 dice for everything that you do unless information technology is sustained by focus, spirit, or metamagic
C: Mad Attack Spell, not really... information technology functions as a Infiltration spell, and Yes, it will allow y'all to get the weapon in... Just I would be willing to bet you will probably drop the spell when you commencement using the LMG to recover your ii dice... so there goes all your advantages...
D: Defensive Spell... Again, not really... It allows you to conceal aspects of your being that y'all wish to conceal, nothing more than... and yes, that is very useful...
My betoken was that spell option is never "sub-optimal"... spell choice is a affair of character concept...
Yes... any spell can be useful, and Yes, I believe that a proliferation of Combat spell in a Mages arsenal tends to lead to solving problems with said combat spells...
Just because someone places a top 10 list of spells, it does non mean that those spells are the optimal choices for every mage... Mode over Substance is the central to a dystopian cyberpunk/shadpwrun futurity... and I will tend to choose my spells based upon that category over any other...
From what I can see, nosotros are non really at odds here, we just have different approaches to characters, and that is okay...
QUOTE
Other than detect bullshit life which is the almost bullshit overpowered spell in the entire game, nearly of a mages infomational spells are pretty medicore.
Cthulhudreams, I believe Kerenshara was addressing what you said about how mage detection spells are crap. Non that heal or fix or the acme 10 spells from that thread aren't better.
Personally, I don't concur that those spells are utter drek because they did not make the top 15 list of that thread. They take their uses.
I mean you kept on maxim how find life is broken. Is information technology really? That depends on gm discretion.
QUOTE
The subject detects all living beings (but not spirits) inside range of the sense and knows their number and relative location. In a crowded area, the spell is virtually useless, picking upward a blurred mass of traces.
According to the definition, a gm tin can say they pick up annihilation from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't be about as useful as detect enemies then, would information technology? Do y'all really care about all the people in Seattle and maybe all the critters, or exercise yous care about those with hostile intentions? Of course, detect life could be useful in other situations. It really depends on the situation. Of class, useful would not be the same thing as must haves, but that's another topic.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 09:36 PM)
Or Ironman.
I love you for this 
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug 6 2009, 01:31 AM)
For the life of me I cannot believe I didn't bring this upward before.
Magic is getting to scientific for me.
its all becoming 1 large blend.
BlueMax
True for me and imitation also. I recognize the fluff more than and tend to personalize the Streams and Traditions more.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug six 2009, 03:44 AM)
As far every bit it goes UV hosts only be should someone make up one's mind to put them in, there are no confirmed UV hosts. This is precisely why I cannot stand up the thought of these current AIs. ...*snip*... They're going be trapped upward in the AAAs and government facilities.
Well, at that place are UV Hosts, Unwired states it.
And do y'all consider Deep Blue an AI? I hateful... Chess... is not actually a genius sport, yous take to memorize things and that's merely somethign a computer does. He can play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That'due south nigh it. There is no artistic thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something modify since my Chess days?
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 09:45 AM)
I love you for this
My pleasure ^^
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug half dozen 2009, 02:45 AM)
Well, there are UV Hosts, Unwired states information technology.
And do you consider Deep Blue an AI? I hateful... Chess... is not really a genius sport, you accept to memorize things and that's just somethign a computer does. He can play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That's near it. There is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something alter since my Chess days?
Depends on whether your going past the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 02:45 AM)
Well, there are UV Hosts, Unwired states it.
And practice yous consider Deep Blueish an AI? I mean... Chess... is non actually a genius sport, yous have to memorize things and that'due south just somethign a computer does. He can play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That's about it. There is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something change since my Chess days?
I'll have to await through Unwired, but I don't look them to be common. Like I said, I would believe them confined to AAAs and authorities facilities, I wouldn't expect whatever UV hosts to just be open admission and would certainly expect whatsoever that be to be locked down pretty tight.
Deep Bluish is a chess AI, and it replicated how the human Grandmaster's play. They report games over and over and they are capable of looking ahead effectually 12 moves to anticipate how the board is probable to look after any given motion. This is precisely what Deep Blue did, information technology brute forced every possible combination Ten moves into the hereafter for a potential move, a favorable outcome getting a positive value. Once it finished running through every motility that it could make, information technology chose the one that had the highest favorable event rating. In chess applications the AI difficulty is a function of how many moves into the future the AI tin look. You lot may not think Chess is a genius sport, but evidence indicates otherwise. Children who are taught chess tend to have strong minds than those that don't. Chess teaches a number of mental activities including memorization. Grandmasters likewise don't perceive the chessboard in the aforementioned manner that yous and I likely do. You and I, we probably perceive the whole chess board visually. That's not how Grandmasters perceive it. They have a far more abstruse view of the board, it's closer to how a reckoner who perceive the board when deciding how favorable an outcome is. This is precisely why the chess AI was 1 of the first ones adult, the best of the human minds perceived it in a style that was similar to how a computer to simulate it.
Trying to perceive something in a visual fashion in your listen is a slow and cumbersome process, being able to abstract it allows it to run more efficiently and quickly. Why is this relevant? Well UV hosts are described equally being a true virtual surround. Everything is a visual representation rather than an abstract one. The individuals who coined the term and requirements may not take realized it, but they take really narrowed the processing ability for an AI to exist. Simply because the UV surround is designed to be visual doesn't mean that an AI in the environment has to perform its logic visually, information technology could just hum forth quietly in an abstract fashion, and in fact would likely practice then to exist able to compensate for the number of human intelligences using the UV host. So a organization which was powerful enough to provide a truthful visual environment for humans to interact provided the necessary abstruse computing power that would allow an AI to emerge nether the appropriate stimuli.
I take no reason to accept these AI characters in Shadowrun as sentient and self-aware AIs. They are, at best, highly intelligence programs and may very well think that they are self-aware and sentient, just are in fact not.
QUOTE (shuya @ Aug 5 2009, 01:53 AM)
wait, why non? practise you REALLY believe that a brain isn't capable of creating pregnant out of a string of symbols? considering i, and the words that i am writing this post with, would argue to the ends of the globe otherwise. if people can write motorcar code, they would take to past necessity be able to empathise it, wouldn't they?
Have yous ever tried to read a program written in binary lawmaking? With dynamic allocation of memory? Dissimilar type of variables (just think how the same lawmaking can hateful unlike things if we speack of unsigned integrs, signed integers and floating bespeak variables; and we are only speaking of numbers)? With the meaning irresolute over time?
Likewise I would like to point out that when you lot write you utilise a much higher level of astraction, and a much larger set up of symbols, the binary code is based merely on the presence or absence of electricity, it's a raw true or false that is fed to a circuit that combines it with other true o simulated to spit out yet other true or simulated, what determines the outcome is the physical structure of the microchip, and then in order to know the meaning of a cord of ones and zeros you have to know how the scrap works (it was done at the very beginning of the history of informatics, with the assembler; and there'southward a reason if other programming lenguages have been developed later on). Lets face up it, human brain, for all the marvel that it is, is only not wired for raw matematical processing (otherwise explicate me why would we need computers in first identify), it just works in a different manner.
And to answer to your question well-nigh writing automobile code, do you lot REALY matter that programmers wirte machine lawmaking? Or peradventure they write text files in a format that can be translated in machine code by a program chosen compiler?
Past the manner ....... what'due south this?
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 06:56 AM)
By the way ....... what's this?
A PNG picture file.
QUOTE
‰PNG
IHDR z H nine��B pHYs šœ cHRM z% €ƒ �� €� u0 �` :˜ o'_�F .�
That'due south the header data for the file.
The rest is the the file for the data starting with the IDAT, I think. I don't retrieve if PNG files typically accept anything beyond the file header and the data. One thing I noticed that wasn't in at that place was the Stop for the information. I wonder if that's really required for the PNG file to properly display...
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 01:57 AM)
i know certain freaks that may not really be able to actually READ information technology, but they are able to understand both binary and hexadecimal . . not able to give out word by word translation, simply more or less able to get the general gist and pregnant of something . . just from looking at information technology . . yes, i call them freaks, and i feel i am allowed to practice so, considering they are buddies of mine <.<
Knowing which type of file earlier manus right?
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 02:02 PM)
A PNG flick file.
Truthful........... Which?
QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ Aug 5 2009, 04:34 AM)
Shadowrun is clearly moving into Earthdawn territory.
TM's are simply an expression of the "Magic equally Engineering" theme prevalent in Earthdawn.
I'm not really excited about going down the road of Earthdawn. Information technology'll probably brand for a adept story, but...information technology'south not SR. It'south already been washed and SR needs to keep moving into new areas.
I prefer more of a techno-punk world with magic being less prevalent. I like to brand mages more rare, which increases their value. I'd rather encounter a college pct of Hackers over magically agile characters in a story.
To accost Resonance versus Magic: they'll merge together. It's articulate the developers are going that road. I tin can certainly run into a fourth dimension where the "Haves" are those magically active people who can collaborate with technology. Nothing like a Marker 17 Blaster in the thirty gigawatt range powered by mana! Need that equalizer to shoot ice? No trouble! The power cells will amplify the magical upshot, acting like a Magic 12 instead of your PC'southward 5. Anyway, this coincides with Earthdawn's Theran empire where elven mages ruled the enslaved masses.
But, that won't happen in my game. I'll only back off on that in favor of a more techno-punk story.
Experience the same.
heh, got to dearest the random smiley that showed up in that jumble 
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug vi 2009, 07:04 AM)
True........... Which?
No idea, I can't read that and tell you what the movie shows. I copied the text into a blank file and made it a PNG and got naught. And so either at that place's important parts missing, some of the characters didn't translate well, or it'southward just a bunch of junk. I do not know.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 12:03 PM)
Depends on whether your going by the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition.
Every bit far equally i know - you may correct me, i beg y'all - the current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Bluish, non Self-Aware or able to recollect outsides it'southward box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned most RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please right me if you see a fault.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 07:41 AM)
Every bit far as i know - you may correct me, i beg yous - the electric current definition divides between "weak" and "potent" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Cocky-Aware or able to think outsides information technology's box. The stiff AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, artistic, personality, maybe even emotions?
At to the lowest degree that's what i learned about RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please correct me if you see a fault.
That is right. As far as I'chiliad concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been stiff AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:fourteen PM)
No idea, I tin't read that and tell you what the moving-picture show shows. I copied the text into a blank file and fabricated it a PNG and got cipher. Then either there's important parts missing, some of the characters didn't translate well, or it'due south simply a bunch of junk. I practise not know.
That's the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ maybe information technology'south due those blasted
Anyway I've just saved it, opened it with notepad and copied the text.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 02:41 PM)
As far every bit i know - you may correct me, i beg you - the electric current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something similar Deep Blueish, not Cocky-Aware or able to think outsides it'southward box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned well-nigh RL AI inquiry on the cyberspace, equally i stated, please correct me if you see a fault.
some other way to sort them are "expert system" and "AI", as a skillful system will exist one thats highly practiced at performing a specific task (like playing chess).
i recollect reading about neural nets being trained to tell moles from cancer, but trying to utilise the same neural internet for anything else and you could just as well toss a money...
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 01:46 PM)
That is right. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been stiff AIs were Delusion/Deus/Magaera.
Why? From what has occured in the 6th World since the Emergance it is clear that the DI's are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They almost certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to be concerned for their own survival and act to increase the chances of that survival. They act in their own self interest, and accept begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They take shown creativity and the ability to move away from their original coding. They take shown the ability to learn both virtually the Matrix Virtual World and the Real Globe, and then use that knowledge to collaborate with both in a style that is benign. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and agreement that what they are looking at is themselves (A exam used on some primates to determine sentience.) What other variables practice y'all want to be fulfilled before y'all would consider them Sapient?
Again, I can see no reason that a truthful AI is not possible by 2070. The processing power well-nigh certainly exists inside a single unit (And over again, and so you throw in the possibility of Deject Based processing which furthers that power to a huge amount). A "Stiff" AI has been shown to be possible in the example the original iii, and since and then the abilities of self adapting software has certainly increased, as well as the capabilities of every 24-hour interval devices. And as besides noted earlier there is the possibility that these DI's are the work of one of those original three. Deus only exists considering Maegera was ripped to shreds. Perchance when they all fought it out during the Crash ane of them saw what was coming and acted to prevent the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new existence.
We do not know enough about the origins of these DIs to come to whatsoever conclussions really. But I practice hope that the Devs exercise non just cop out and say "Bang-up Spirit is behind all the Matrix Stuff!". They still have more than plenty avenues to bring it back to a technological singularity.
(And Delusion/Deus/Magaera are the but AI's that we know about. Those are the simply ones that came into contact with Shadowrunners in a meaningful mode and created a big enough wave. Others could easily of stayed subconscious if they had wanted to (Mirage managed it for over 30 years, only I approximate a fair few of those was sitting in some abandoned warehouse in a Concluding). The AI that might be in the Nexus is one example)
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug vi 2009, 02:46 PM)
That is right. As far as I'grand concerned the simply Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Delusion/Deus/Magaera.
lets non forget that at that place was a sub-AI running around in SR3, the SK, or semi-autonomous knowbot...
hell, information technology was hinted that these knowbots was what the AI'due south spawned from.
in SR4, information technology seems that the agents and drone pilots may well accept "evolved" into SK like territory...
btw, the metasapient is but 1 variant of AI running round in SR4...
there is also the xenosapient and protosapient.
ane sounds very much like a authorities worker in software form, while the other a wild animate being...
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 09:07 AM)
That's the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ perhaps it's due those blasted
Anyway I've just saved it, opened it with notepad and copied the text.
I just did the same thing, as an practice in fun I did a comparison between what yous pasted every bit characters to the saved file....
The saved file is 2F2008 (3,088,392) bytes long.
The text yous pasted is 2FC00E (iii,129,358) bytes long.
I've noticed outset off that the IEND characters that are at the terminate of every PNG file were lacking in your pasted version. I'grand thinking that some of the copied text didn't copy correctly when put into the web....
AFAIK, Morgana was an SK (before she transformed to Morgana), Deus was a highly sophisticated SK or Expert System with parts of Morgana und Mirage was the outset ever conceived SK, AFAIK too.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM)
That is correct. As far as I'one thousand concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been potent AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.
This is for you to decide. I miss those three likewise, merely by the Strong/Weak definition, AIs like Pulse or Sojourner are potent in my eyes. Even the Ferals and Xenos.
I call up all the AIs called AIs in SR4 encounter the criteria for Stiff AI. I think weak AI are things like Agents or Knowsofts. After all, if it tin can give you the skill to perform surgery on a patient, pilot a aeroplane from one urban center to another, trade stocks, etc., that's Weak AI.
Past the mode, I think I tin see the topic from here.
K.
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug half dozen 2009, 09:eighteen AM)
Why? From what has occured in the Sixth World since the Emergance it is clear that the DI's are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They about certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to be concerned for their own survival and act to increment the chances of that survival. They human action in their own cocky interest, and have begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They take shown creativity and the ability to move away from their original coding. They have shown the ability to larn both about the Matrix Virtual World and the Real World, and then use that knowledge to interact with both in a way that is beneficial. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and understanding that what they are looking at is themselves (A test used on some primates to make up one's mind sentience.) What other variables practise you want to be fulfilled before you would consider them Sapient?
Again, I tin can run into no reason that a true AI is not possible by 2070. The processing power almost certainly exists within a single unit (And again, so you throw in the possibility of Cloud Based processing which furthers that ability to a huge amount). A "Strong" AI has been shown to be possible in the instance the original three, and since and then the abilities of self adapting software has certainly increased, as well as the capabilities of every day devices. And as likewise noted before there is the possibility that these DI's are the piece of work of one of those original three. Deus only exists because Maegera was ripped to shreds. Peradventure when they all fought it out during the Crash one of them saw what was coming and acted to forestall the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new being.
No, you lot've misunderstood my argument. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" nevertheless they nevertheless simply "sprung" into existence similar the large iii is the result. There is evidence in that location is a need for a disquisitional mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and become cocky-aware. If this contiguous disquisitional mass was not required, then this new nomenclature of digital intelligence would have been cropping up prior to the 2d matrix crash due to the amount of computing power bachelor in the first matrix. In one case the intelligence has emerged then there's naught keeping information technology from fracturing itself to run using a deject computing method.
At that place's simply a couple of acceptable logical explanations for DIs.
ane. These are stiff AIs only in that location were entirely developed past metahumans, they are not emergent and did not spontaneously come up into existence.
ii. These are NOT strong AIs simply are highly avant-garde intelligence programs.
three. Magicky handwaivery.
I have a hard time like-minded with #1 because if that were the instance, there would be testify that would betoken to that.
#3 irritates me because it helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the difference betwixt technology and magic.
nah, thats just a fata morgana...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 03:22 PM)
nah, thats just a fata morgana...
waka waka
How can a play on words be and so clever and so terrible at the same time? 
That. Was. Atrocious! 
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 09:44 AM)
waka waka
How can a play on words exist and so clever and and then terrible at the same fourth dimension?
That. Was. Awful!
"Hay! Kermaaaaat!" "Aye, Fozzie?" "Wanna hear my new joke?" "Um, I sort of need to be going-" "Oh, come on, come in, it's great!" "Mmmmmgh, ok Fozzie I guess..." "OK... [Insert Lamest Joke You Know, hither]" *from the balcony* "But you lot didn't pay for the ticket!" "I know!" "Ah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!"
"Waka waka!"
"That was and so bad, I want my money back!"
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug half dozen 2009, 04:44 PM)
waka waka
How tin can a play on words exist so clever and then terrible at the same fourth dimension?
That. Was. Awful!
the worst office, information technology was not intended as such. Only now that its pointed out, i encounter it...
but and then i keep dropping comments that could get a nun blushing, and i need to be told what the issue is...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 04:35 PM)
the worst function, information technology was not intended as such. Only now that its pointed out, i run across it...
Actually? That's a neat shame. The pain was only mitigated for me by respect for your power to make Latin puns that worked on multiple levels. Ah well, I shall simply pretend it was deliberate.
@Kerenshara: Those ii onetime guys were my favourite!
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug vi 2009, 09:01 AM)
I think all the AIs chosen AIs in SR4 encounter the criteria for Stiff AI. I think weak AI are things like Agents or Knowsofts. Afterward all, if information technology tin give you the skill to perform surgery on a patient, pilot a airplane from i city to another, trade stocks, etc., that'southward Weak AI.
By the manner, I think I can see the topic from here.
One thousand.
I'll put forth there are AI'southward all over the place. Heck even now in RL there are AI'south (think of all those bots in a first person shooter). In any result-what the existent question is if the AI is self sentient or not.
Basically you accept a few categories of AI's in SR4:
Unproblematic AIs: Agents-that don't do anythin that is off the script or across their programming or what a user tells them to do.
Feral AI: Independent funtioning program that tends to human activity on just a survival instinct only. Has no ways or capability to talk to others, though it will react to the presence of other matrix entities. Normally hostile.
Civilized AI-Independent and capable of plenty full meta-human thought. Notation that this does non meant it thinks like a human, every bit its perception can exist radically dissimilar.
God/dragon similar AI-Dues, Mirage, Morgan that had mental capabilities beyond a meta-man.
At present for sprites:
Controlled Sprites are AI's that formed by random code noise that TM manipulates and puts together.
Gratis sprites-Matrix equivielnt of Free spirits. They vary in capability from impaired every bit a post to dragon like intelligence.
Yes-I have noticed that they took the matrix and gave your the option of a street sam (hacker) or mage ™. Though early on TM'south have it harder early, a hacker it seems has a harder time improving oneself. In that location is the Adept choice (since mages and adepts can use AR and VR without penalty in 4E)
Anyone who has ever played Street Fighter Ii, knows that M. Bison was a frickin' AI.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 10:13 AM)
No, you've misunderstood my statement. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" still they still just "sprung" into beingness like the large three is the outcome. In that location is evidence there is a need for a critical mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and get self-enlightened. If this face-to-face critical mass was not required, then this new classification of digital intelligence would have been cropping upwards prior to the 2nd matrix crash due to the amount of computing power bachelor in the commencement matrix. In one case the intelligence has emerged and so there's nothing keeping it from fracturing itself to run using a cloud computing method.
In that location's simply a couple of acceptable logical explanations for DIs.
1. These are stiff AIs just at that place were entirely developed by metahumans, they are non emergent and did not spontaneously come into existence.
2. These are Non strong AIs simply are highly advanced intelligence programs.
three. Magicky handwaivery.
I take a difficult time agreeing with #ane because if that were the case, there would be evidence that would point to that.
#3 irritates me because it helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the departure between engineering and magic.
So you are saying, 'real' AI like deus require a tremendous computing ability. Mail service crash computer arrangement that the new AI/DI are on does not take such computing ability. If new AI/DI tin exist on the computing ability from the mail crash figurer organization, then they should take existed in the pre crash reckoner system.
Withal, pre-crash AI/DI might not have existed due to software issue, not hardware issue. We know that AI and Morgana required a spark. We could come across that as a requirement on the software side. Other nodes with tremendous computing power exists, only the potential DI/AI didn't have the spark. Non to mention Deus would probably have assimilated any that did to remove competition.
So, I tin can have a theory (or points/ideas) beneath:
1. It requires tremendous calculating power to have the emergent of the spark (or lawmaking) that makes an AI sentient occur spontaneously.
two. Once the spark is obtained, information technology does not crave the same tremendous computing power to keep the sentience.
(This is because yous aren't trying to write lawmaking that metahuman never wrote. An example would be Deus got out of the arcology, put himself together, and is however sentient.)
3. Tremendous computing ability, nonetheless, allow AI to be the uber AI that Deus and Morgana were.
4. Mail service Crash and Pre Crash both had plenty of computers with enough power to permit sentient AI (but non generate sentient AI).
5. Mail Crash AI/DI acquired the spark during the Crash.
(This might take occurred for whatever reason. Peradventure the AI didn't want to dice, they rather pass on their 'genes' like someone else said before than to simply perish away. Maybe Deus was hoping that his conscious would remain and he can continue whatever he was doing.)
half-dozen. Postal service Crash AI/DI have computing power enough for sentience, together with spark, AI/DI can exist.
7. Without UV host or tremendous calculating power, the AI/DI tin can't be uber like Deus.
(And once you requite AI/DI loftier rating computer system and a lot of karma, they will be uber
Anyway, just a possible estimation. I am not a master of all the shadowrun history and is very likely to take gotten something incorrect. I felt similar this allows for the explanation of AI/DI without 'hey information technology'southward magical. Magic came to matrix and out comes AI.' Too, with the little we know of what happened to Deus and Morgana, what is to say that they aren't secretly manipulating the matrix. Nothing stops them from beingness the technology side of a Great Dragon just because piffling drakes and dragon like AI/DI appeared. 
QUOTE (siel @ Aug six 2009, 02:53 PM)
I hateful you kept on saying how discover life is broken. Is it actually? That depends on gm discretion.
According to the definition, a gm can say they selection up anything from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't be nearly every bit useful every bit observe enemies then, would it? Do yous actually care about all the people in Seattle and maybe all the critters, or practise yous care about those with hostile intentions? Of class, discover life could be useful in other situations. It really depends on the situation. Of class, useful would not be the same thing as must haves, but that's another topic.
Did y'all read the example? The example says that the spell tells you
A) Who is waiting for you
B) What they are doing
C) What they are thinking
It is just astonishing and seriously just straight up and down better than many of the other spells in the game. Detect enemies is, for instance, a total joke compared to detect life.
But Siel, you need to sympathize oppotunity costs. If you lot do Ten, and didn't do Y, the cost is not merely whatever you got from X, bu what you missed out from in Y. Look, If I give y'all two choices
ane) I requite you 4 billion dollars
2) I requite you four million dollars
no strings attached etc etc. While in the absolute 2 is good, considering information technology gives you 4 meg dollars which is peachy, it still a bad choice because you just turned down the opportunity to go 4 billion dollars.
Taking observe enemies is rubbish and detect enemies is a jank spell because yous are turning down an opportunity to have something from the top 15 list. If there are fifteen spells that are better than detect enemies, and you can only take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is e'er a bad pick.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 05:56 PM)
Did yous read the instance? The example says that the spell tells you
A) Who is waiting for you lot
B) What they are doing
C) What they are thinking
It is just amazing and seriously just straight up and down amend than many of the other spells in the game. Observe enemies is, for example, a full joke compared to observe life.
But Siel, y'all need to understand oppotunity costs. If y'all practise 10, and didn't do Y, the price is not just whatever you got from X, bu what you lot missed out from in Y. Wait, If I give you 2 choices
1) I give you 4 billion dollars
2) I requite you 4 meg dollars
no strings fastened etc etc. While in the absolute 2 is good, because it gives yous four million dollars which is bully, it all the same a bad choice because you just turned down the opportunity to get 4 billion dollars.
Taking notice enemies is rubbish and detect enemies is a jank spell because yous are turning down an opportunity to have something from the top fifteen list. If at that place are 15 spells that are meliorate than discover enemies, and you can only take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is always a bad selection.
I say that it still depends upon your character and his objectives...
Discover Life is great, except that information technology does exactly that... DETECT LIFE... Me, I really do non care about everythign around me that is alive, which is going to potentially be a VERY LARGE number of living things... Detect Enemies does Only that... Detects those who accept a directed intent to harm me...
Notice Enemies is more Immediately useful than Detect Life in a lot of circumstances...
They are both good spells... very different uses though...
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